The Faith - 2 of 6 - What went right. What went wrong.
Posted by Anonymous | Labels: The Faith | Posted On Thursday, June 24, 2010 at 9:07 PM
Hey friends!
We had a great continuation of Chuck Colson's series...once we were able to unlock the door to the classroom we were booted to on a Thursday evening. Tyler B. literally had to lift me up so I could reach my depressingly short arm through the little window all while Cody was heading back with the key.
Just as another random side note, the picture represents a book, unChristian, co-authored by Gabe Lyons, the interviewer with the sweet hair in the DVD series we've been viewing. I've not read it, but I heard good things as it delves in to perceptions of Christians held by nonbelievers.
The title I so willingly borrowed from the session really takes us back to one thing, one HUGELY important happening- Creation.
Think of the oh so practically proverbial question since it's asked so much, "Why do bad things happen to good people?". Considering we were molded by such a loving God, this is the most common argument against Christianity. On the one hand, we have sinful hearts and are not really good people; thus, we don't really deserve anything. At the same time, we were created in the image of God meaning we have a capacity to do great good and in His Holy Name, of course.
Let's explore more of the discussion generated in, and from, this interview with Chuck Colson. Keep in mind that he was one of the first indicted in the Watergate Scandal ("I'm Richard Nixon!" Did you see my raised peace signs? No? Ok...). He has done some serious sharing of the gospel within prisons and helped God move many, many fallen hearts.
So we know the order of things: the Creation, the Fall, and the Redemption. Wait? Cue record stopping sound. Redemption. Say it with me. Re-demp-tion.
You may know (and if not, that's totally okay!) that God came to this world to turn it upside down. He invaded this world. He did this not with an army, but with a CHILD. Jesus was born to a virgin, making Him unlike the rest of us; He was sinless. A virgin birth, THE Virgin Birth, should be no big thing to comprehend (it is a HUGE deal) if you believe God breathed everything into existence. On that note, even Muslims believe Jesus was a moral teacher. Even nonbelievers recognize that there is something wrong with this world. So what happened? God created. Why is there sin? Satan, yes, but because God gave free will. Now, that is NOT His fault for giving us choice. Who chose wrong? Adam and Eve. The original us. Who's STILL choosing wrong? Best be pointing that finger at yourself.
"Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean'" (Mark 7:15)
K. So this sounds like it really sucks. It kind of does. A lot. So what next? GRACE. God loves, and He forgives. What else? HOPE. God came in the form of man and died as a man to atone for our sins, a debt that should have been and should be paid by each and every one of us.
"Anyone who is among the living has hope" (Ecclesiastes 9:4)
Colson talked about prisoners and how they just sort of get it. They understand the Good News, the Gospel that proclaims God's Kingdom on Earth to relinquish the grip Satan has on this world. Any ideas why?
They are some of the lowest of the low. They have nothing, and it is constantly reaffirmed that they ARE...nothing. If this is not evidence as to how God allows bad things happen to bring us closer to Him in the long run, I don't know what is. That's His goal, the desire of His very own heart. Now, I am not saying that God told these men and women (or anyone of us that are victims to our metaphorical prisons) to do bad things. Free will remember? While we are born fallen and will fall hard, how much more we appreciate God's Grace when we get back up again!
How do we reach nonbelievers with the Good News? Be real. Be you. Seek God. Ask for help. Know who you are talking to. Build relationships.
I know this was scattered, but I pray it generates even more discussion. Thanks to Cody, Tyler B. and Heather for your insight so I may have words to add here for others.
Have a great week everybody!
-Kevin
"Preach the gospel at all times and when necessary use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
"When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death." -James 1:13-15
Thanks for writing all of this out Kevin- I know that I didn't make it to this discussion, but interestingly I just had a really long and good conversation with my roommate last night and we were talking about this topic. The one thing that my roommate made me really think about was this idea that God allows evil to happen to bring us closer to Him. Overall I really don't like this idea and I don't really agree with it, because I feel like if you say that, then free will goes out the window. I think if God is always in control of the situation, letting bad things happen to us, then God is always in control of every decision we make, which doesn't make sense in the whole free will discussion. Yes, God has defeated evil on the cross, but humans still have a real choice to make. As the passage in James 1 states- God does not tempt anyone, but rather we are drug away by our own evil desires, enticed, which leads to sin and death. I do think this is a really interesting thing to think about though...because at the same time you have the story of Job, which presents a scene where God is allowing Satan to tempt Job, but Job ultimately still chooses God. Overall I have come to the conclusion that we have a choice to make every day...in order to have true free will, we have to have the power to equally choose good or evil and the consequences of our actions will be given to us. Does it really make sense to say that we have true free will, but yet God is still influencing even the bad that happens to us? I totally understand where you are coming from...I think the existence of evil makes us realize just how much we need God, and getting pulled away from God and enticed often makes people wake up to the fact that they need a savior and draw closer to Him...but I'm not sure that this whole idea of God being in control of the bad things that happen to us makes sense in the bigger picture of free will. It is confusing...and the whole topic of evil/ Satan/ demons is a rather tricky one because there really isn't one place in the Bible to just go to and read about how it all works and operates in our world...it is weaved throughout scripture, so that makes it fun too! It is great to think and discuss things like this with each other though, because this topic is often one of the first things to come up in conversations with non-believers. If you find any passages on this topic or anything else to think about, let me know. Just some things to think about and continue to discuss! :o)
rewind...I just re-read your post, and I think I didn't read it right the first time. Here is where my confusion came in...
"God allows bad things happen to bring us closer to Him in the long run, I don't know what is. That's His goal, the desire of His very own heart. Now, I am not saying that God told these men and women (or anyone of us that are victims to our metaphorical prisons) to do bad things. Free will remember? While we are born fallen and will fall hard, how much more we appreciate God's Grace when we get back up again!"
In reading it again, you have all the elements there I was just talking about...but I still have trouble with the statement that God allows bad things to happen. There is an ulterior motive there that implies that God is still controlling that situation. If God allows bad things to happen, but does not directly tell people to do bad things...where is God's influence there? I would say that it is all free will and, as you said, falling away will help us appreciate God's grace when we get back up again. I'm not trying to be nit picky about your passage, and we should definitely talk about this in person- it is A LOT easier that way. :o) I guess I just always try to challenge everything because that is what a non-believer would do to us, and we should always be prepared to respond, with the help of the Holy Spirit. :o)
Sorry! I only just now read your comment. We know God is love (1 John 4:7-21) and ultimately just plain good. For the sake of free will (the birth of which He allowed to happen in the Garden), I, personally, believe He does allow bad things to happen. He COULD change situations, and He COULD change our minds so we always do what's right. But He doesn't. I just feel that all the meaning in the world for free will comes from that- that God could so easily intercede and make up our own minds for us, but He chooses not to. I can see where you're coming from and definitely appreciate the challenge. The growth is necessary especially when engaging with non-believers. Definitely worth talking about in person. Thanks, Tyler!
I have been thinking more about this...I agree that God allows bad things to happen. Here is the distinction I was trying to get at (and I don't think I made it very clear)...God allows evil to happen as a result of our free will choice, but does not put people through evil situations with the motive of having them turn back to him (that would be taking away the 'choice' aspect...basically forcing people to choose evil so that they will see how good God is in comparison). God gave everyone a choice, and in that choice (free will), God had to allow evil to be an option and allow it to enter into the world. Overall what bothers me is when people say that 'God put me through that evil situation to bring me closer to him.' To me, that doesn't make sense. We all made a choice to choose sin over God because our very nature is sinful as a result of the fall of mankind...that choice to choose sin over God has real consequences that we deal with everyday. Did God allow that evil to happen? Yes, he had to...he gives us all a choice every day, and the consequences of our choices are real. The good news is, if you choose evil and then turn to God, He will work everything out for good (Romans 8:28). BUT...I think we always need to remember that we each have a real choice to make and evil is real and the consequences are real. God is not putting us through evil situations, he is giving us a choice (which includes allowing evil to happen), and our choices have repercussions. This is just something that has been on my mind a lot lately...and I think there is a tendency to sugar coat evil and its consequences at times and not take responsibility for the choices we make. It makes sense to me that God allows evil, but does not put people through evil situations to make them turn back to him...he gives us a choice. Small but important distinction I think...hope that makes sense! :o)
I apparently did not make my point as clear as it sounded either. I agree with everything you said there. I guess that was the point I felt I was actually making sans the notion about evil being very real and very much a result of our choice NOT to follow Him at any given time. Should have included it considering it is how I feel. I still see it as providing meaning in growing closer to Him. My post should have mentioned how it brings us ultimately closer to Him IF we choose to repent. You are right in that it is a choice and it is our choice. Thanks for pointing out the missing piece and other faults in my post. Hell is real and should be respected with that sense of urgency we discussed last night. I was not trying to suggest that God puts us through evil, but He is waiting with open arms if we make the follow-up choice to come back to Him (cue Journey song). People have a deeper understanding of grace (as we've discussed) when they've fallen. I just should have more explicitly included these details to strengthen my 'argument'.